adminKasukuwere (SK) on Zanu-PF’s Indigenisation and Economic Empowerment Policy; and MDC-T deputy treasurer general Mr Elton Mangoma (EM) on his party’s Jobs, Upliftment, Investment Capital and the Environment (Juice) among other issues
IT: Minister Biti has spoken about the sovereign fund or the National Indigenisation Economic Empowerment to the tune of US$4 billion. What is this fund?
SK: The Sovereign Fund or the National Indigenisation Economic Empowerment Fund acts as a national endowment fund where we are able to retain value out of natural resources. We are not the first country to have such a facility; countries like Norway, Libya,
China etc have similar funds.
But in our case, the fund as set out in the Empowerment Act 14:33 seeks to ensure that we are able to hold on behalf of the people shareholding for various purposes for subsequent disposal to various groupings be it management buyouts, employees, communities etc.
At the same time we have expanded its role, basically to make sure that the 31 percent (from 21 to 31 percent) that we acquire is stowed in an equalisation fund to bring about balanced development in the country.
As we mine our minerals we can’t replant them. This is meant to maintain value for this and the generations to come. The fund has been built and we are glad that we have received implementation programmes from companies of the indeginisation programme.
We have put pen to paper with Mimosa, Unki Mine and others. We are sitting at an endowment value of US$4 billion. Of course we will have to calculate what payouts we are going to make over the next few years. The reviews we have received from analysts’ world over have put Zimbabwe on a developing trajectory.
IT: Hon Mangoma as MDC, how do you view the creation of the Endowment Fund?
EM: One has to put them into context. It is often very difficult to pick up what one would consider a success and then run with it and make it look as if that is policy. You want to see what it means for now and the long term in terms of the broader development policy that benefits the majority of the people. So when people narrow that as success without something being properly analysed you will find that the debate is actually misplaced and many people will then get the wrong end of the stick? What is important is to be able to say what is this thing solving and as far as I am concerned the big problem in Zimbabwe is the question of jobs.
Therefore does Zanu-PF have anything that brings to the party, something that will generate jobs so that people feel empowered or are we continuing on this narrow sense where people look at the enrichment of the elite, because it is not even empowerment at this stage, and therefore we begin to pick anything that looks like success? As far as I am concerned there is really nothing to celebrate and to say this there has been an achievement or not.
In fact depending on where one looks and sits, where you are using a high handed tactic to extract concessions that you might be able to show this fires back more than when people are going in of their free will.
IT: So you say companies, these companies for instance Mimosa are not going in of their freewill, they are being strong armed into this?
EM: That’s correct. It is very clear that both Minister Kasukuwere and the Indigenisation Board are being heavy handed. They have spoken to the companies and they have indicated and there are other people who have spoken that this is a strong arm tactic.
As he said before coming on air I used to be Minister responsible for investment promotion and one of the single largest deterrents of investment in this country has been the indigenisation law. Not only is the indigenisation law imprecise, the implementation of it has been done without following the kind of procedures that have been agreed to and therefore it has been on the strong arm tactics than the things agreed to.
IT: Honourable Kasukuwere, are you using your weight as Zanu-Pf to strong-arm or bully companies into ceding shareholding to you? Are you following procedures in acquiring shares from these companies?
SK: I don’t blame Minister Mangoma’s lack of sincerity, I think he is doing this because he is this trying to sell the invalid Juice card.
There has been no strong arm tactics. We set down with all these companies. There has been willingness by the companies followed by various analyst publications.
The Act came into being in 2008. In 2010, I as the minister responsible for implementation of the policy put forward to cabinet a set of statutory instruments.
Honourable Mangoma was the Minister of Economic Planning and Investment Promotion .We held several cabinet meetings discussing the same matter in fact they were the 39th, 40th and 41st cabinet sittings. We had several bilateral meetings, myself and him. He brought the UNDP, World Bank you name it.
We even went further to the cabinet committee of legislation which Minister Mangoima and I were also members and I am sure he is still a member up to this day and we discussed the whole implementation, came up with the 12… (Interjected by IT).
IT: Why was Honourable Mangoma bringing UNDP and all the other people to you?
SK: That’s why I talked about sincerity. One of the things we must do to be fair to our country, let’s learn to stand up and defend and say the truth. When we are in cabinet we take collective decisions Minister Mangoma has made several statements, I can quote “It is no longer possible for us to be strangers at our own weddings”.
But again sincerity, we are now entering a season of elections. So Minister Mangoma must find something that looks like a policy, he is talking about jobs, broad based economic policy, all this we have talked about.
All these things we have attended to. I am not pursuing a narrow minded policy. We are talking about empowering our people in various communities across the country. It’s happening in Shurugwi, Zvishavane, Matabeleland and various provinces of Zimbabwe. His Excellence has been around the country launching these schemes.
This is the basis upon which there is shared ownership of resources, which unlocks the value of our country and its resources into the hand of the majority. You can’t talk of job creation without attending to the job creator. Who is the job creator? When I hear my colleagues talking about jobs I know they are in a difficult space.
They have to show something to show why they are in government what they have been able to do. One has to point to me one company which has closed because of indigenisation but I can give you companies which are expanding because of indigenisation. Meikles
, Pick and Pay are coming into this country Ecobank came in and accepted this law and they have expanded, PPC is going to invest US$200 million in Rushinga, Mount Darwin. The CEO of Mimmosa said to me “Mining is a privilege it’s not a right. Coming to your country is a privilege and not a right”. This is the indigenisation aspect. Let’s look at the forward thrust the economic empowerment. Giving our people the where withal to do things for themselves. Giving our people the confidence to build their own country in all fields of endeavour. Yes we know at the end of the day you indigenise, you empower. You develop to create employment to create sustainable economies in a given country.
IT: HM you wanted to respond
EM: I wanted to respond because the minister is touching on so many different things that are so disconnected.
IT: He mentioned the 39th 40th and 41st session cabinet meetings.
EM: There is no doubt that the first statutory instrument that was published, was published unilaterally and there were lots of problems with it. And this was simply to give the minister the power to call for implementation plans, not to actually effect the implementation plans. And therefore the statutory instrument that was published (interjected by IT)
IT: What are you saying in lay man’s terms?
EM: What I am saying is that the indigenisation and empowerment Act was so loose that it says for it to be implemented there must be some regulations that must be published. So when these regulations were issued, to empower that the process starts, it was done in such a bad way including the use of the word cede, which if you look at its dictionary meaning is, “giving for no value”.
Until we had to correct the whole statutory instrument to make sure that there is no cession. It is a purchase for value. That is one of the corrections we made. The second thing was to make sure that there would be separate indigenisation plans and implementation time tables which themselves would need to be further gazetted as statutory instruments and these have not yet been done.
IT: So all things were happening in cabinet? You were actually discussing in cabinet.
EM: In terms of the implementation of that Act, the Minister does not have powers that he is exercising now. He is now going beyond what was agreed to in cabinet and that is the fact.
IT: Did cabinet approve indigenisation?
EM: Sorry I think we are mixing too many things. There is the principle of indigenisation, which he has talked about where I said we cannot be guests at our own wedding, where the people have got to be involved. This is the principle of indigenisation which accepted across the board including in our Juice document. What is at stake is the 51 percent requirement not the principle itself. No Zimbabwean will ever say we are against it. What we are saying is, the way that it is being interpreted and being done is going to be able to reduce the kind of investment that we get in this country.
IT: As a party you agree to indigenisation
EM; Yes we agree. It is the how part and the level of it.
So that is really what the issue is. For us it is the timing of the indigenisation thrust, what do you put first and then second and third for it to make sense? When you are cooking sadza, do you boil the water first or do you put the mealie meal first. If you put mealie meal first you are not going to have proper sadza. Even if all the ingredients are there. Zanu PF’s way is going to give you mbodza. You have got to follow a certain process that makes sure you have got proper sadza. We are saying you need to start with capital injection into the economy so that you grow the cake so that when the cake has grown you begin to do other things to empower the people in terms of ownership. The major empowering thing to anybody is having a job. Just like you have a job you are empowered without having a share. And we are saying the majority of people can be empowered by having jobs. Let’s not say once you accept the principle of indigenisation you must accept the way Zanu PF is doing it. That is the way we are different.
Online Reporter